Stanley Sobottka

You know, there's this thing that I do sometimes, and it might be exactly what Sobottka and Kiloby are talking about. I know for a fact that when I see something 'out there' the sensation of what is seen isn't happening 'out there' but instead it's happening 'in here' if you like, that it's made of consciousness. To be ultra-clear about this: I know that when I look at this computer screen, light from it enters my eye, hits the retina, generates an impulse that travels along the optic nerve and when it reaches some part of my brain when I'm awake, it generates the experience that I'm having right now - the experience of a computer screen about a foot in front of my face, but which I know for a fact isn't really a computer screen out there, but actually just a visual sensation occurring in consciousness.

I also know for another fact that whatever a computer screen actually is, I don't perceive it, cuz all my perceptions merely echo it, represent it, portray it. My visual impression of a computer screen bears about as much relation to the actual screen as a sonar blip on a screen bears to the whale below the boat that the sonar picked up.

I also know for a third fact that I don't know whatever it is that's perceiving the screen, although I believe there's a witness here watching the screen.

Of these three - seer, seen and seeing - the only one I experience is the seeing. As for the seer and the seen, I have no idea.

So when I notice this, it's fun, cuz instead of things I see being perceived as 'out there' it's suddenly as if they're not 'out there' at all, but instead, they're sort of 'in here', but not really. It's more like they're 'made of consciousness and not things out there at all'. It's also amazing when I do this, to reach out and touch something that I know is made of consciousness. lol

Cuz it feels *so* solid, and the interplay between the impression of 'solid out there-ness' and the knowledge that actually both the visual and tactile experiences are made of consciousness' is shockingly entertaining.

So if Sobottka and Kiloby are talking about what I've just described, then I'm completely okay with it. But I still believe, even when I'm viewing things in the world as consciousness instead of things in the world, that there is still a world and a witness that exist but which I have no possibly of ever knowing or perceiving - they are, and must remain, complete mysteries.

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friendly with the inevitable

	Claudia wrote:
	It's like "ignorance is bliss" if you don't know there is a war going on somewhere, you have no reason to feel unhappy about it, until you are made consciously aware of it. Until then, it doesn't exist.

Until then, it doesn't exist FOR YOU. But it exists for the person whose ass is getting shot. See, I figure there's about a trillion trillion trillion tons of stuff going on that we have no idea about. It's going on quite happily without you or me or anybody knowing about it. The atoms at the center of the moon, for instance. Nobody's watching them. But they're there. And any doofus who says: "That's just an idea you're having; you don't know they're there," is just a doofus. lachen

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friendly with the inevitable

	Quote:
	Until then, it doesn't exist FOR YOU. But it exists for the person whose ass is getting shot.

Does it? Does the road I am driving on exist before I drive on it or as I climb the crest is it created as I go?
Does your bedroom exist when you are in the living room? Or is it created anew each time you go in it?

I guess I am a doofus then.

Well, it's this way, then. Either you're a doofus, or reality is so radically different from how I understand it that we might as well be living on different planets. You know, the older I get the lonelier I get, the more obvious it is how little common ground there is between me and just about anyone I know. With most of my interactions, I don't begin to talk about what interests me and how I see things, because on the few occasions I do that, people look at me like I'm an alien. It would be nice to actually *connect* with someone. But it would seem that the writing is on the wall - that connection is less and less likely to happen the way things are going. The beauty of this place is that I get to actually say the things I perceive and value, but even so, there's not often a connection or understanding. I'm not complaining, I'm just saying.

Anyway, I'm going to abandon comparing ideas on this issue. It's always a dead end.

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friendly with the inevitable

"The higher, the fewer".

-Star Trek, The Next Generation

You are on a path that very few travel, so yeah, people are going to look at you like you are nuts. You just called me a doofus for my beliefs. They are going to call you one as well. Why does this have to be a deal breaker when it comes to
making a connection? Do we have to agree or can't it be a connection of people who think "out there" thoughts?

I was having fun. I am sorry you didn't feel heard. I did hear you. I am sorry you felt it was a dead end.

dobro wrote:

... You know, the older I get the lonelier I get, the more obvious it is how little common ground there is between me and just about anyone I know. With most of my interactions, I don't begin to talk about what interests me and how I see things, because on the few occasions I do that, people look at me like I'm an alien. It would be nice to actually *connect* with someone. But it would seem that the writing is on the wall - that connection is less and less likely to happen the way things are going. The beauty of this place is that I get to actually say the things I perceive and value, but even so, there's not often a connection or understanding. I'm not complaining, I'm just saying....

I said that.

Didn't I?

Well, I could have!

Dobro, you have a unique viewpoint that no one else CAN have! It's impossible! It's impossible for any of us to see things EXACTLY as someone else does! It's as if everyone is standing in one spot (which is to say, their own) and they are gazing off into the distance. By definition, each vantage point would have to be different.

But we all FEEL the same way that you described above!

Isn't that amazing?

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One day, I felt just a hair's breadth from the deepest sorrow.
Then I reminded myself that I was a hair's breadth from exquisite joy.
After a deep breath, I moved on.

I feel very lonely too at times because I can't share this stuff aside from here.

Claudia, I feel the same and I am sooo grateful that you make this forum available.

With regard to the universe possibly being radically different from how we understand it, I think of Einstein and his insights into relativity and how that changed understanding of time, space, and motion, and how quantum theory has changed our understanding of subatomic goings on, and the implications of string theory. I don't have a problem with the universe being radically different from how I perceive it. Science has already been telling me it is so for years and years.

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Thought can never deliver reality, but it's the only means awareness has of talking to itself.

Fascinating discussion, everyone,

I think that Stanley is saying that objects and experiences aren't real, in the sense that without awareness they don't exist. That awareness is the primary reality, and everything else is dependent on awareness for it's existence.

Great point, Tin Soul,
No one else can have exactly the same personal perspective that any one individual has. Each one of us is perceiving from a limited perspective. Still, that is no reason at all to feel alone or isolated. Where we are all connected is in this primary reality of awareness. And this is the source of true love anyway. Not on the level of two limited perspectives somehow magically becoming one. Once we feel that connection of true love with everything and everyone, then their different perspectives are very interesting indeed. As if a higher power is perceiving the world through these limited senses. And it may very well all be a dream.

There is a huge sense of relief in knowing that. Time to just lighten up and enjoy the mystery ride. lachen

	Claudia wrote:
	I feel very lonely too at times because I can't share this stuff aside from here.

loneliness is amazing

it's a feeling, an energy,

with a story attached to it

can you see it for what it is?

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Life is too important to be taken seriously lachen

summer speaks of being connected

claudia speaks of loneliness

which may be a feeling of disconnection

what does being connected feel like?

can you bring that feeling about in yourself right now?

why not give yourself what you need?

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Life is too important to be taken seriously lachen

Claudia wrote:

"The higher, the fewer".

-Star Trek, The Next Generation

You are on a path that very few travel, so yeah, people are going to look at you like you are nuts. You just called me a doofus for my beliefs. They are going to call you one as well. Why does this have to be a deal breaker when it comes to
making a connection? Do we have to agree or can't it be a connection of people who think "out there" thoughts?

I was having fun. I am sorry you didn't feel heard. I did hear you. I am sorry you felt it was a dead end.

No, it wasn't about you or what you were saying. You're remarkably reliable in your style - you just keep working the understanding and that's all I want from anybody, I think, aside from love. But from the relationship and interaction with people I value, I want connection, and when I don't get it, it feels like the Berlin Wall. Which came down eventually, you will remember... But when I hit a wall, I turn left or right.

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friendly with the inevitable

I'd like to put my two cents in here

what i am is the space in which this post and all posts are being perceived

the sense of being somebody with an opinion is just that, a sense, an idea

why take it so seriously?

after all, i like laughing at myself

especially when i believe anything i'm saying big grin

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Life is too important to be taken seriously lachen